Talk:Vanguard Guide (Mass Effect 2)
Builds Just putting this up as a notice- class builds, as has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere (such as Talk: Gold Standard Class Builds) are inherently a matter of opinion, not fact. As such, they have no place in the articles, but rather belong in the forums. For an example of what a proper class guide page should look like, please consult the Adept Guide page. Note that it is build-free, but contains all the factual material you could want. As such, I'm going to be removing class builds from these pages, but figured I'd give some notice so that people could move the info to the forums if they want to just copy/paste it. I figure I can hold off till sometime Saturday (what can I say? I'm impatient.) before actually removing the info. SpartHawg948 08:31, February 12, 2010 (UTC) Some modifications I cleaned up some bad info about shotguns, particularly since this info wasn't updated with the DLC Eviscerator shotgun. Also changed some other info that while valid for veteran or lower, specially the overview and the area biotics, it was completely misleading for hardcore or insane difficulties where all enemies bring protection. The heavy weapons information also seems rather redundant as it is in no way class-specific, same goes for the information about companions since very little of it haves anything to do with vanguards at all. It may also be considered a spoiler to call garrus and legion by their names here, not to mention entirely unnecessary. TGBlank I suggest not mentioning the first game when talking about garrus/tali and the collector ship shouldn't be mentioned here(advanced weapon training is okay), the legion section here is not that bad(considering that Legion was in one the earliest trailers for the game, after all), it only has his name and abilities, not that spoilerful in my opinion. CsAtlantis 01:10, February 22, 2010 (UTC) :Cleaned up the spoilerific garrus part, switched his name to archangel since it still redirects to his dossier page, should be enough. No idea of what to do with tali tho, perhaps names should be switched to their dossier/achievement nicknames?. ::If that were to be done then Samara would become Justicar, Jack becomes Subject Zero and Thane becomes The Assassin/Assassin but Tali's dossier already says Tali, so I think there is no problem there, you meet her really early in the game anyway CsAtlantis 01:39, February 23, 2010 (UTC) :::True enough, still, the companion section is highly redundant, it lists the companions and their skills but there's nothing specific to the vanguard there, it also repeats itself ad-nauseum. It could be completely replaced by, say list of which ally talents complement the vanguard better or for particular situations, for example. What do you guys think? --TGBlank 02:16, February 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::I agree. But the same could be said about talent descriptions, most of the content could fit in the talent description page. The guide would then only explain how to use them together well (strategies, builds...) Oopah 20:28, February 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::I'm mostly suggesting doing that with the companions in order to remove spoilers, as guides such as this are likely to be read by new players. :::::Builds are a matter of opinion and should be left out of the wiki, as for the talents, it is helpful to have their info at hand when deciding which talents to take (as in, using the guide), particularly that of charge since it's the core of what makes Vanguard unique, still, other talent's info should be trimmed down to: what it's useful against, whether or not it gets the short end of the stick on hardcore/insane, and the numerical data of the two evolutions (since it's not readily accessible ingame).--TGBlank 20:48, February 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::What's bothering me is that most of a class' talents are shared with other classes. For example, in this guide most of the talents' descriptions would fit perfectly in another class guide (or on this talent page). That means that one may find good infos about this class powers in other class guides (or rather may have to look into other guides). Also, there's not so much content about how it's like to play a Vanguard, what are efficient strategies, and good talent synergies. Yet imho theses are important things to know when starting to play with a class. Just my 2 cents (btw sorry my english is not so good) Oopah 20:49, February 24, 2010 (UTC) :::::::The game's classes share powers, it is obvious that the wiki class guides will share power information, there's no way around this because a guide without such info would be a pain to use every time one uses it to decide which powers to level up. The best one can do is to expand on the unique talent of each class and add info on each talent on how they fit with the other talents. :::::::Overview, info on charge talent and shotgun section explained vanguard tactics. Re-edited most of it for clarity. also the whole talent section. Replaced companion part with squad power usage and useful talents to complement vanguard. Now i type like Mordin. ::::::::Looks good. The squad member part is great, as are the improvments on the other parts. I've added some more content to Charge description, hope it's not too awkward.Oopah 00:24, February 25, 2010 (UTC) I've noticed some mistakes (but i'm not 100% sure they actually are errors) * The shield recharge from Charge isn't lost after 4 seconds. What is lost however is the bonus to max shield value. All shield bonus powers seem to work like this. * Extra ammo powers (Warp Ammo and Armor Piercing Ammo) are imho not so good for Vanguards, or at least redondant : Incendiary Ammo is already very good since most of enemies are organics. Besides, the Vanguard already have very good biotics ability such as Pull and Shockwave to deal with unprotected enemies. Warp Ammo deals with barriers (but not shields) too, so it's good against collectors, but you loose some damages bonus% and the ability to panic unprotected organics. It's like wasting the extra power slot to me. :While the guide currently doesn't say that the shield recovery disappears after 4 seconds along with the shield bonus, it doesn't state that it doesn't disappear with it either, which should be fixed. :As for bonus powers, there really isn't much else to pick, the powers i didn't listed are either completely redundant (neural, slam & dominate are redundant if one haves pull), inferior to others listed (shredder is inferior to AP, fortification doesn't get biotic-related bonuses like barrier). The only other power would be the grenade, which is a pain to aim.--TGBlank 19:41, February 23, 2010 (UTC) :While I agree that Slam can be very redundant for a Vanguard, I have personally found it invaluable. When spending points deep into ammo powers, Slam gains utility as it is more quickly accessed (Vanguard must first drop 6 points - 3 into Change and 3 into Shockwave - before gaining access to Throw) and more...usable. That is, Slam will do impressive damage, regardless of range, and regardless of where the target is standing, and that damage will only increase AFTER hitting the enemy with Pull or Throw. A Throw when your enemy is standing on level ground in an open area will often fail to do even 50% damage on Casual difficulty. Slam will kill the vast majority of enemies (except Scions or bosses) in a single shot. Most importantly (from my point of view) slam has a 3 second cooldown - BEFORE upgrades. With upgrades, it can be triggered every 2 seconds or perhaps even faster (haven't done the math, but I know it'll be at least 2 seconds.) In short, Slam provides an ability which is quickly accessed, does reliable damage, and recharges quickly - all qualities that make it VERY appealing if a Vanguard wishes to focus their early points on ammo powers instead. I agree that, if you're going to rank up charge from the start, your next point should be in Shockwave, and as such, Slam loses utility. However, I'm willing to bet many players won't do that. Personally, I still only have rank 2 Shockwave and I finished the Collector Ship mission 6 missions ago (I have Jack spec'd to use that for me.) I wouldn't be surprised if others do the same. All this said, would anyone mind if I add a blurb about it? --Chuckmoney 04:22, December 27, 2010 (UTC) Corrected Charge section. "Slow-down" is not correct. Replaced it with "slowdown", which is. Stanleytweedle 08:34, February 6, 2011 (UTC) Heavy Weapons Guide Every class gets heavy weapons, and so far, whilst correcting spelling and grammar, what I've read is applicable to all classes, not just vanguards (this is not to say there aren't any, e.g. "the Particle Beam is a good complement to a Vanguard because it fulfils one of the class' deficits: long range combat"). Anyway my point is that most of the info can just be copy and pasted into the other guides because it is so generic. Either that or the info could be moved to the individual weapons pages and linked there instead. Dch2404 11:50, March 4, 2010 (UTC) : Yea i think the heavy weapons and their brief descriptions do not need to appear in this guide except for vanguard specific heavy weapons strategies CsAtlantis 03:54, March 11, 2010 (UTC) About Ammo Powers Just a little though I've been experimenting with. I notice in the ammo section it doesn't quite explain the real benefit of using Warp/AP Ammo. While it points out how it may be redundant, using the ammo can also take the place of Incendiary or Cryo, leaving more points to max out both Shockwave and Pull. Shields "the Vanguard benefits the most from shield-enhancing armor parts and upgrades than from health ones, since charge's bonus to shields depends on how much shield you have." Can anyone confirm this? I was under the distinct impression that all Shield-Boosting abilities, including Charge, only use your base Shield Power, and completely ignore any equipment bonuses. Besides which, when you lose your shields, you become momentarily invulnerable, so less shields/more health seems to be the better choice either way. Kailieann 04:43, August 6, 2010 (UTC) Snipers Just to justify my edit: cover and range are both perfectly acceptable and effective ways of reducing damage. Using tall cover, you can even aim and fire shots while standing behind it (without being "in cover") without being hit. As such, I'd say the time-slowing effect is the only thing a Vanguard lacks in that area. Ev0lve 19:52, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :Actually that was referring to benefits provided by powers like Adrenaline Rush, Operative (power), Combat Mastery, or Tactical Cloak. The Vanguard doesn't have any of these abilities to help reduce the amount of damage that is taken, see Combat Mastery, and it says Vanguards have no way of slowing down time, or otherwise reducing the fire you take '''while' taking a long-range precision sniper shot.'' The Infiltrator and Soldier both have abilities to help them line up shots while they are out of cover, while the Vanguard lacks those abilities to assist in the damage reduction and/or aiming departments. Lancer1289 19:59, October 4, 2010 (UTC) I was quite aware, what I'm saying is that those powers were clearly referenced before Tanooki1432 added the extraneous line. It's a little misleading to say that Vanguards have no way to reduce the fire you take while taking a long-range shot, which is what the use of or implies. The powers are much more important for lining up "heat of battle" shots. My edit made things more clear, and concise. Ev0lve 20:06, October 4, 2010 (UTC) If you feel like that section of the article was inadequate half an hour ago and the redundant line is necessary, I'll reword the latter half of the sentence to avoid misinformation. Ev0lve 20:13, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Crowd control Claymore? The section on the Claymore talks about the weapon's lack of crowd control, something the Geth Plasma Shotgun apparently has. What does the term mean? I get that the term is used generally to describe the quality of being able to sort of direct enemy movements on the field, but I don't see how a shotgun can be said to have crowd control abilities. --CasualGamer 04:38, June 10, 2011 (UTC) What bonus damage? "... because, at short range, not only does Charge takes you to point-blank range allowing you to hit with all the pellets, you also get a 2x bonus to damage" Can anyone please explain this one? Does it mean extra damage while the time dilation is active, the damage bonus against ragdolled enemies, Warp ammo boost against enemies affected by biotics, or something else? :It means the X2 damage from the shotgun at close range. Lancer1289 14:54, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::Never heard about this. There's no mention in a Shotgun article as well. Could you please provide the source? Mitranim 15:12, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :::Every weapon has set ranges, and this is confirmed by the devs. I can't find the links right now, but at close range, every weapon does X2 damage. Lancer1289 15:17, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::::One the loading screens says that weapons do more damage at short range, but I always thought it implies they lose damage at range, not that they receive an actual damage boost up close, as it's not common in shooter games. If there's an actual confirmation, it's an important info that should be included in Combat (Mass Effect 2) and linked here. Otherwise, it's a misinformation. Is it an official info? Mitranim 15:32, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :::::I did state that I can't find the links at the moment and I did say that the devs confirmed that. I really don't see what was so hard to understand about that. Lancer1289 15:34, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::::::I understood it. I just implied that I don't quite trust this statement without a source. Mitranim 15:37, June 10, 2011 (UTC) Charge It seems like the charge section of this page has way more info on it then necessary. It seems like we could tone it down a bit. Ruler Of The Wastes 01:49, January 12, 2012 (UTC) 01:42, January 12, 2012 (UTC) :Well the guide's purpose is to describe how best to use the power for the specific class, and since it is unique to the Vanguard, it is probably to be expected that it is longer. The guide is more for general tactics, and that is mostly what it provides. Unique situations obviously belong on the relevant pages, but if you have any suggestions, offer a few suggestions, please don't cut out anything yet or post text there, sandbox it instead, and then we'll go from there. Lancer1289 03:20, January 12, 2012 (UTC)